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The following is a thread, trolls, typos and all, from The Soapbox
which discusses the environment and some of it's many problems.

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PAGE 2


From: assenav(3)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   41 of 159 (In response to terryl) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:07:52 -0800 
 
 
terryl@coshocton.com wrote:

-You are right, Global Warming is pure B.S..


Well, I wouldn't have expected anything more from you. You seem to display a singular lack of
foresight in any given situation.
 
-WE won't hear much about
-Global warming now that anti-gun, communist AL Gore is out of the picture.


Don't worry, you'll be more than "hearing" about it. IT'S HAPPENING!!! 

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From: lcrmw(843)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   42 of 159 (In response to assenav) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:22:17 -0800 
 
 
assenav and mishkat, you guys are cool. I almost always agree with your posts. Just thought I'd
let you know!

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From: assenav(3)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   43 of 159 (In response to wolfsangel) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:16:11 -0800 
 
 
wolfsangel wrote:

-GLOBAL WARMING & OTHER JUNK SCIENCE
-It would seem that a number of the the lower-end loony left and their
-empty-headed fellow travelers have crawled from the woodwork with your
-posting on this bogus "GLOBAL WARMING" nonsense. The pure ignorance and hysteria of these
-uninformed "save the world"
-arrogant fools never ceases to astound. They allow themselves to be propagandized by a horde of
-fortuitous kooks, half-baked marxists and
-ding-a-ling environmental scientist weirdo types. If these pathetic nutjobs didn't take this
-"Global Warming" garbage as
-gospel truth, then it would actually be quite funny. 

Well, the fact that terryl is now on board with you only goes to show that your beliefs are
fueled by ignorance (if only THAT could be used as an energy source, then we'd get somewhere.) I
have tangled with him on other threads that have degraded into no more than childish tantrums
and name calling. It was fun at the time, but I will not allow myself to be drawn into that type
of fruitless exchange once again. Unlike sniping, THIS issue is of actual importance to us all.
The facts have been laid out to you here. If you choose to ignore them for your own selfish
reasons it is at your own peril....nay....to the peril of us all.


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From: lcrmw(843)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   44 of 159 (In response to terryl) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:24:48 -0800 
 
 
terryl@coshocton.com wrote:


-WE won't hear much about
-Global warming now that anti-gun, communist AL Gore is out of the picture.



It's snowing so much in Michigan, it's covering the Gore signs on our lawns.

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From: assenav(3)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   45 of 159 (In response to lcrmw) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:20:42 -0800 
 
 
Thanks for the support. I enjoy yours as well. It can be so disheartening when you think about
how many people these guys opinions represent.

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From: assenav(3)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   46 of 159 (In response to bestlook) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:28:15 -0800 
 
 
Sorry to post this one again, but the html tags got shifted around a bit the last time and didn't
come out properly: 


bestlook wrote:

-We may hear less about Global Warming since Al Gore has been put on the
-back burner. Somewhere I read a statement that has really summed it up for me: "it is the height
-of foolish arrogance for Man to believe he can alter the entire climatic system of the earth." 


Whoever said that obviously has no grasp on the situation. It is not man alone who has changed
it. It is man and all of the things he has created and destroyed in the process of creating. 


-Of course it
-probably is changing, but I doubt that my car and my daily in-and-out breathing is going to
-affect it at all.



Not just you, but the 5 other billion that are here as well. It is exactly that singular type of
thinking that is the problem. We are all to blame and we all need to come together to help solve
it. 


-Anyway, it is true that the rumors of warming have been greatly exaggerated.



'Fraid NOT!

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From: mishkat(53)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   47 of 159 (In response to assenav) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:44:17 -0800 
 
 
Hey, thanks to both assenav and "teach" (I can NEVER remember your screen name), from one of
those ding-a-ling environmental scientist weirdo types :).

What is a fortuitous kook, anyway? 

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From: assenav(3)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   48 of 159 (In response to a3whaler) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:37:35 -0800 
 
 
Sorry to post so many messages all at once everyone, but I have been away all day, and to me this
is one of the most important issues on the plate.

a3whaler wrote:

-Space Exploration? Think about it. When those rockets take off, they
-can't possibly get into outer space without first poking a hole in the
-*gasp* ozone layer!
-According to http://www.giss.nasa.gov./research/observe/surftemp "there has been a long-term
-global warming trend underway since the early 1960's." The space race began in earnest in the
-early 1960's. Coincedence? I think not.


That is a good and valid point. The explosive rise in jet travel is also a factor. Have you ever
noticed the extreme alteration of cloud structure that takes place in the vicinity surrounding
an airport. Besides the actual fuel pollution, that kind of thing just can't be good for our
weather patterns.

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From: opals4u(229)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   49 of 159 (In response to a3whaler) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:43:28 -0800 
 
 
(When those rockets take off, they can't possibly get into outer space without first poking a
hole in the *gasp* ozone layer!) 
The last I knew the hole in the ozone layer was over the south pole. I don't recall any rockets
being launched from there. And you can't punch a hole in the ozone layer or there would be holes
all over the world, not just over the south pole.


("there has been a long-term global warming trend underway since the early 1960's." The space
race began in earnest in the early 1960's. Coincedence? I think not.)


The coincedence is that the baby boomers from the 40's have grown up thus the population
increase. What few rockets that were launched in the 60's could not have brought about the ozone
problem alone. If that was the reason alone, then with the reduced launches, the hole should not
be increasing but it is at an increasing rate. 

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From: mishkat(53)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   50 of 159 (In response to opals4u) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:50:22 -0800 
 
 
Thanks for answering this, opals. No, you cannot "punch a hole" in the ozone layer - it is not
like a sheet of cardboard :) 

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From: assenav(3)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   51 of 159 (In response to mishkat) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:42:51 -0800 
 
 
mishkat wrote:

-What is a fortuitous kook, anyway?


Ya got me! :)

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From: assenav(3)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   52 of 159 (In response to mishkat) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:46:40 -0800 
 
 
Agreed about punching holes in the ozone, but can't all that fuel have an adverse effect, 
especially if it were to become more frequent? 

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From: mobius@space.com(0)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   53 of 159 (In response to mishkat) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:02:11 -0800 
 
 
Mishcat. I am no scientist, but I do take notice of many different opinions being put forth on
the issue of global warming. Much of it has come from various televised reports, newspapers,
magizines,etc. The most balanced report I have seen was on a national geographic special, on
pbs. Given what little I know it seems to me that the earth has been undergoing huge climatic
changes long before man made a apperance. Could the present changes not be a part of the normal
gobal warming, cooling cycle? The works of man seem rather puny on a global, geologic scale.
Mobius

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From: wolfsangel(1)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   54 of 159 (In response to assenav) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:59:02 -0800 
 
 

It's so MUCH fun to bait deluded egotistical leftist zealots ! 

Just using words to describe you guileless fools for what you are. Since your minds are
apparently so small that it's not a great task to brainwash you people. It would seem that
you're already marching in lock step to the tune of your socialist one-world masters. 

A couple of decades ago . . . the leftist environmental thugs were harping on "GLOBAL WINTER"
along with coming "world cooling". In the 1970's the same earth day gangsters were all yapping
about the polar ice caps expanding and swallowing up the United States down as far as South
Carolina. Back then, it was easier for these bolshevik criminals to contrive a fiction in that
mode . . . Somehow, it all got reversed and now we have these green-earth hoodlums selling their
"GLOBAL WARMING" offal to the great unwashed. You morons swallow this garbage in one big gulp!


Anybody who dares challenge the radical anarchist left's attempt to transform concern for the
earth's climate and weather into a political tool for their own grab at power will be attacked. 

What is truly despicable about you "believers", is that you're so simply played for complete
suckers by the one-world marxist agenda crowd.

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From: opals4u(229)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   55 of 159 (In response to assenav) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:04:03 -0800 
 
 
Agreed! It certainly can, but that is due mainly to the rapid rate of population growth requiring
more use of fuels. Decrease the population by whatever means (another planet?) and the problem
will decrease. 
The real reason, too many people in too small of a area (Earth). 

This is only my opinion, but it sounds logical to me. 

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From: wolfsangel(1)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   56 of 159 (In response to assenav) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:09:42 -0800 
 
 

To quote you . . . 

Disease and pestilence are the earth's way of combatting this scourge known as humanity


Gee . . . A real people person huh? You're without doubt really one of the humane well adjusted
leftists.


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From: assenav(3)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   57 of 159 (In response to wolfsangel) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:06:57 -0800 
 
 
The last resort of the ignorant is to turn to name calling. I will not be drawn into your level
of immaturity. Your arguments have no basis in fact and therefore no validity. Continue on in
your selfish ways for whatever your narrow sighted reasons and leave this matter to people who
actually care about what goes on in this world beyond their own tiny, rented, little patch of
the universe. Someone just said on TV the other night, "We're all just passing through." - Let's
try to keep it in shape for the next generations to follow.

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From: opals4u(229)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   58 of 159 (In response to wolfsangel) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:14:52 -0800 
 
 
Since you apparently know it all. How about some documentation to back up your input.

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From: assenav(3)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   59 of 159 (In response to wolfsangel) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:12:12 -0800 
 
 
wolfsangel wrote:

-Gee . . . A real people person huh? You're without doubt really one of
-the humane well adjusted leftists.


Yes, I am a people person actually. But, I acknowledge the fact that we all have flaws -
individually and collectively!
 
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From: wolfsangel(1)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   60 of 159 (In response to opals4u) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:21:36 -0800 
 
 
Hey . . Thank you for DOUBLE POSTING that !

Maybe they'll give you some type of award of Lenin at the next commy cell meeting!


Ha! Ha! 

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From: assenav(3)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   61 of 159 (In response to mobius) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:22:09 -0800 
 
 
mobius@space.com wrote:

-Given what little I know it seems to me that the earth has been
-undergoing huge climatic changes long before man made a apperance. Could the present changes not
-be a part of the normal gobal warming,
-cooling cycle? The works of man seem rather puny on a global, geologic
-scale. Mobius


Yes, there are natural climactic changes that have always occured. Earth, and the whole galaxy
for that matter are constantly evolving. BUT, the changes that have been occuring in the past
few decades are monumental changes that have been greatly affected by man - not a man, but a
collective of humanity which cuts down rainforests that are needed to control co2 levels, dams
lakes and rivers effecting far more than they realize, builds over farm land and forests to make
room for "urban sprawl" effecting the balance of wildlife everywhere, fishes to the point of
near decimation of species....need I continue? It is all inter-related.

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From: wolfsangel(1)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   62 of 159 (In response to assenav) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:26:41 -0800 
 
 
ooooOOO !

Must have struck a sensitive vein? 

No need to justify your personal conflicts and degenerate internal issues here. Save them for
your shrink.

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From: wolfsangel(1)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   63 of 159 (In response to assenav) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:32:30 -0800 
 
 

What a total load of idiotic rhetoric bullshxt! 

Where do you get this moronic crap from ? Save-the-Earth comic books?

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From: gems5843(0)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   64 of 159 (In response to wolfsangel) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:33:51 -0800 
 
 

Since you have nothing to add, but insults it shows what an idiot you are. Ha! Ha! Ha!


See your two Ha's! and raise you one. 

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From: assenav(3)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   65 of 159 (In response to wolfsangel) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:34:16 -0800 
 
 
Okay, I get it. You ARE just a troll. No vein has been struck. No internal conflicts or issues
have been discussed here whatsoever. Just because I can recognize flaws in my own character and
of others does not mean that I require a psychiatrist. If you are trying to rile me with inanity
you will not succeed. You obviously have no concern for this issue and are unwilling to learn so
go away and leave this thread to people who do have an open mind.

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From: a3whaler(75)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   66 of 159 (In response to opals4u) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 18:57:19 -0800 
 
 
opals4u wrote:
-The last I knew the hole in the ozone layer was over the south pole. I don't recall any rockets
 -being launched from there. And you can't punch a hole in the ozone layer or there would be
 holes -all over the world, not just over the south pole. 

I wrote my space race post in jest, but here goes... To reach outer space from Earth, a rocket
must pass through the Earth's ozone layer. Some ozone sticks to the rocket and more gets forced
by thrust into outer space (to mingle with the atmosphere of other worlds and for all we know to
their environmental detriment) thereby leaving a hole in the Earth's ozone layer. The ozone hole
made by the rocket "knits" itself back together by shifting ozone from the direction of the
south pole, filling the hole at the more northern latitude but leaving a gap at the south pole.
That's why there aren't ozone rocket holes all over the world.

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From: a3whaler(75)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   67 of 159 (In response to a3whaler) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 19:09:01 -0800 
 
 
Question: Given the population and industrialization of the northern hemisphere, why isn't the
ozone hole over the north pole? 

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From: terryl@coshocton.com(53)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   68 of 159 (In response to assenav) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 19:07:07 -0800 
 
 
WE are like a gnat on an elephants tail. "Save the world" The world has already survived floods,
fires, universal explosions etc. It has already outlasted us by millions of years. What are you
going to save? When we as humans are all gone some other species will inhabit the world or the
universe which will be hundreds of thousands of years from now.
Global warming is a bull crap story started by most likely the E P A {which stands for End of
Productive America} and is communist backed. 

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From: assenav(3)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   69 of 159 (In response to terryl) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 20:11:25 -0800 
 
 
terryl@coshocton.com wrote:

-WE are like a gnat on an elephants tail. "Save the world" The world has
-already survived floods, fires, universal explosions etc. It has already outlasted us by
-millions of years.
-What are you going to save?
-When we as humans are all gone some other species will inhabit the world or the universe which
-will be hundreds of thousands of years from now.


But until then we need to provide a livable atmosphere for our descendants, as well as for the
millions of other species on this planet who were here before us and who are now suffering
because of our actions.



-Global warming is a bull crap story started by most likely the E P A
-{which stands for End of Productive America} and is communist backed.



You are truly delusional. To think Ibsen wrote "Enemy of The People" so many years ago and yet it
still rings so true today. People, like yourself, continue to be so selfish that they would
deliberately avoid the truth for what they believe to be their own benefit. 


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From: assenav(3)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   70 of 159 (In response to a3whaler) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 20:18:50 -0800 
 
 
I believe it has to do with wind currents, and where everything ends up collecting. Perhaps
Mishkat could provide a better answer. 

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From: opals4u(229)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   71 of 159 (In response to a3whaler) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 21:34:32 -0800 
 
 
(Some ozone sticks to the rocket and more gets forced by thrust into outer space)

There has always been a hole in the ozone layer even before rockets were developed, it is just
getting larger.


Whose rockets caused it to begin with? (ALIENS?) 

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From: jrip@ix.netcom.com(201)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   72 of 159 (In response to opals4u) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 21:59:00 -0800 
 
 
I find it very strange that on every thread that has any kind of scientific discusion, the people
who know the least about the subject are the ones who scream the loudest. But maybe they are
here for some comical tension reduction. They present us with a little chuckle and we can get
back into the trenches to debate it like grownups. 

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From: opals4u(229)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   73 of 159 (In response to jrip) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 22:12:14 -0800 
 
 

1998 was the 20th consecutive year that the Earth's surface was warmer than its recent long-term
average, which is the average for 1961 through 1990.


Beginning in the 1950s, the use of CFCs and other stratospheric ozone depleting substances
increased by nearly 10 percent per year until the mid-1980s, when international concern about
ozone depletion led to the signing of the Montreal Protocol on Substances that Deplete the Ozone 
Layer.


Naturally occurring greenhouse gases include water vapor, carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxide
and ozone. Several classes of substances that contain fluorine, chlorine, or bromine are also
greenhouse gases, but they largely a product of industrial activities. 

In the 20th century the burning of oil and other fossil fuels increased the atmospheric
concentration of the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide by 30 percent and industry introduced 70,000
synthetic chemicals to the environment, including some deadly toxins such as dioxin. 

Ground-level temperature measurements show the earth has warmed between 0.3 degrees and 0.6
 degrees Celsius in the last century. 

In 1995, the Second Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC)
confirmed that "the balance of evidence suggests that there is a discernible human influence on
global climate." The report projected that global mean surface temperatures would increase by
between 1 and 3.5 Celsius by 2100, the fastest rate of change since the end of the last ice age.

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From: mfdc@escape.ca(8)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   74 of 159 (In response to assenav) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 22:18:02 -0800 
 
 
assenav wrote:

-There is WATER on the the top of the Arctic for the first time in, oh,
-50 million years.



Who recorded that there was no water on top of the Artic 50 million years ago? And 20 years ago,
I remember reading all kinds of warnings that we should all prepare for a mini ice age that was
overdue by 8000 years!! Go figure the fear mongers.

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From: jrip@ix.netcom.com(201)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   75 of 159 (In response to opals4u) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 23:39:59 -0800 
 
 
I have no agument with you, matter of fact I agree with everything you posted. My post above was
meant for a certain factual challenged induvidual that keeps throwing Bush or Gore into the
debate. The majority of scientist agree that there is global warming, in fact it would be hard
to ingnore the evidence for it. They do not all agree in which way it will play itself out, nor
how to solve the problem. But rising ocean levels, polution levels measured in the artic ice by
drilling samples that go back thousands of years, show that this high level of polution is new
to our age and has never exsisted before to such a degree. It takes a very closed minded person
or one with absolutly no idea what he or she is talking about to put up such infantile
arguments.

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From: wallypog(381)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   76 of 159 (In response to mfdc) 
Sent: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 23:56:36 -0800 
 
 
Not replying to mfdc, but that was the last post. 
Funny thing--DH and I were discussing the other day just what the cutting down of the rainforests
and urban sprawl are doing to this world. Now, please bear in mind, we are by no means tree
hugging environmentalists, just plain ordinary folk who read a little hear, listen to a radio
show there, and the like. Hubby's of the near genius mentality so a lot of things like this
pique his interest big-time and of course, we have to talk about all of it.


For years, I've been trying to figure out how we could build a Tesla coil big enough and launch
it near the ozone layer where it could produce enough ozone to repair some of the damage. Of
course, this isn't really a viable option, but it sounded like a good idea, anyway. 

Here's a few things I've learned over the past years about weather patterns, ozone layers,
possible global warming, ice ages, etc., etc. 

The holes in the ozone layer have been around for absolutely ages. A very ancient oriental legend
claims that making love under what we call the northern lights increases fertility. Of course,
the northern lights are only visible because of the hole in the ozone layer allowing the
starlight to show through in the magnificent display it does. That hole has been there for a
very, very long time (not saying we're not making it bigger).


Several hundred years ago (I don't recall how many--I'm terrible with dates), when people first
moved in to settle Iceland (which is now pretty darned barren and icy), the land there wasn't
covered with ice. It was wonderful farmland. That's what enticed the folks to move there to
begin with. Through the times, the weather patterns have changed to create what is there now.


Diseases and genetic defects are nature's way or eliminating the weaker of our species. I would
never want anyone to go through the pain of losing a child (have been through it myself), but at
the same time, many of the advances of modern medicine aren't doing a whole lot to increase the
strength of the human species. Now please, don't take me wrong--as I said, the thoughts of
saving lives makes me very happy. 

We've created antibiotics to fight infections (wonder of wonders) but in doing so have left super
strains of bacterium to multiply and breed. If antibiotics are over-used, they will eventually
become useless, as our bodies will be incapable of producing natural antibodies against the
bacterium. We also use soaps that kill 99.9% of bacteria, under given circumstances. Well, we're
wiping out that 99.9% while that .01% is going to be what kills us.


We've created poisons to destroy animals who spread disease. These animals are becoming immune to
the poisons to the point now where the threat of disease is again becoming very real.


There are already viable options to fossil fuels that could be put into use tomorrow, as well as
carburetors which have been developed that would get 100 miles to the gallon. However, the
powers that be sees fit to shut anything like this down because they're not going to make enough
money off of it (or at least can't see how they could profit). 

I hate urban sprawl. Every time I drive to town, I see more and more farmland being turned into
subdivisions. Because of the development, our entire groundwater is being totally messed up.
Farmland that was being irrigated with water from drainage ditches (run-off from winter
snow-fall in the mountains) is now being watered from wells. Acres and acres of land providing
the oxygen necessary for life are swiftly being replaced with houses, asphalt and concrete. Most
of the houses are so close, there's hardly room for 10 feet of grass between them. 

I do believe we will see massive changes to our earth's atmosphere and more changes to our
weather patterns. I can't say exactly what they will be or when they will happen, but I do
believe they will occur. 

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From: mishkat(53)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   77 of 159 (In response to mobius) 
Sent: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 05:01:50 -0800 
 
 
mobius@space.com wrote:

-Mishcat. I am no scientist, but I do take notice of many different opinions being put forth on
-the issue of global warming. Much of it has
-come from various televised reports, newspapers, magizines,etc. The
-most balanced report I have seen was on a national geographic special,
-on pbs. Given what little I know it seems to me that the earth has been
-undergoing huge climatic changes long before man made a apperance. Could the present changes not
-be a part of the normal gobal warming,
-cooling cycle? The works of man seem rather puny on a global, geologic
-scale. Mobius



Hi Mobius - I'm not a climatologist or an atmospheric scientist, but here's how I understand it.
You are correct that the earth goes through natural heating and cooling cycles, but these are
usually measured in geologic time - not in the length of people's lifetimes. We are still
experiencing climatic and geographic changes that date from the last ice age.


However, it appears that human activities have greatly accelerated the heating cycle now
occurring. The natural heating and cooling cycles also lead to catastrophic events (the ice age,
for one), but these changes occur very slowly. For example, low-lying parts of the East Coast
would probably naturally end up being under water eventually - but this may happen much more
quickly now - and have much more impact since people are living in these areas!


You wrote: 

The works of man seem rather puny on a global,
geologic
scale.



Well, they are, but that doesn't mean that humans can't make the earth unlivable for themselves
and for other species that are unable to adapt quickly. In other words, the earth will still
exist but it might now be the same place it is now.


TC, mishkat

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From: mishkat(53)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   78 of 159 (In response to assenav) 
Sent: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 05:13:02 -0800 
 
 

Hi assenav - No, I really can't - don't know enough about climatology. I do know out that
chemical reactions in the ozone layer are causing thinning of the whole layer - and the ozone
layer protects us from the sun's radiation (very simplified explanation)


TC - mishkat

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From: lcrmw(843)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   79 of 159 (In response to wallypog) 
Sent: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 05:16:07 -0800 
 
 
wallypog wrote:

-We've created antibiotics to fight infections (wonder of wonders) but
-in doing so have left super strains of bacterium to multiply and breed.
-If antibiotics are over-used, they will eventually become useless, as
-our bodies will be incapable of producing natural antibodies against
-the bacterium. We also use soaps that kill 99.9% of bacteria, under
-given circumstances. Well, we're wiping out that 99.9% while that .01%
-is going to be what kills us.


You are right on that. A fever is the body's natural defense to kill bacteria. Unless a fever is
so high that it, in itself, is causing harm, there's no need to artificially lower body
temperature. It bothers me when TV commmericals tell us to dose our kids at the first sign of
fever. No wonder they need so many antibiotics. And no, I'm not a nut, and I take my kids to the
doctor regularly, but our society has gotten carried away with the antibiotics thing.

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From: mishkat(53)   (view author's auctions)  
Topic: Re: Global WARMING 
Message:   80 of 159 (In response to jrip) 
Sent: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 05:21:40 -0800 
 
 
jrip@ix.netcom.com wrote:

-I have no agument with you, matter of fact I agree with everything you
-posted. My post above was meant for a certain factual challenged induvidual that keeps throwing
-Bush or Gore into the debate. The majority of scientist agree that there is global warming, in
-fact it
-would be hard to ingnore the evidence for it. They do not all agree in
-which way it will play itself out, nor how to solve the problem. But
-rising ocean levels, polution levels measured in the artic ice by drilling samples that go back
-thousands of years, show that this high
-level of polution is new to our age and has never exsisted before to
-such a degree. It takes a very closed minded person or one with absolutly no idea what he or she
-is talking about to put up such infantile arguments.



Thanks for bringing this up - I honestly don't understand why people perist in making this a
political issue. Although I have to admit that it is kind of refreshing being called a communist
for the first time since I was in third grade - it was the WORST playground insult way back then
during the height of the cold war. (Khruschev was in power at the time, so that was a while
ago.)


I am not sure what communism has to do with environmentalism. Some of the worst environmental
disaster areas in the world today are in the former Soviet republics. Environmental issues were
NEVER a priority under the Soviet regime - and I can't think of any other communist nation in
which they are a priority.


Also, I don't know what the people who are calling GORE a "leftist" think of Ralph Nader - most
of the people I know who voted for Nader did so because they think Gore is too CONSERVATIVE!
(IMHO, both Gore and Clinton often take policy stands that are to the right of those taken by
Richard Nixon - although maybe Nixon was a communist too?) 

Well, I gotta get over to work with all the other "environmental scientist weirdo types", many of
whom are registered Republicans :) 

Take care, mishkat

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